tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC June 7, 2012 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
advice seriously. we really want you to get along with your neighbors, and we definitely don't want you moving east to washington after november. you see, willard, even i want what's best for you because it's best for the country. thanks for watching, i'm al sharpton, "hardball" starts right now. anti-democratic shenanigans, let's play "hardball." >> i'm chris matthews in washington, let's start with the purging of voter rolls in florida. i have deep suspicions. why is the secretary of state removing people this summer before the presidential election. is he looking for suspected aliens or democrats?
it does smell like what the government did in 2000 when the florida was declared for bush by the u.s. supreme court. that year they decided the election for w., some 1200 felonies were kept from voting. they turned out to be legitimate voters. here again, were they suspected felo felons or democrats. there is something afoot when they keep the young and minority from the ballot box. we have the supervisor of elections in leon county florida, and the president of the florida league of women voters. thank you so much for joining us. here is where that thing stands down there. right now, last week the department of justice sent a letter to the florida secretary of state saying the effort to purge ineligible voters might be a violation of the 1965 act. any changes had to be submitted for approval.
they basically said drop dead tr he wrote the department of state respectfully disagrees with the department of justice's position. the actions taking by florida to identify and remove noncitizens from the voter rules ensure the right to vote of citizens is protected and not diluted. so where are you on that, sir? is the county supervisor of elections in tallahassee? >> let me tell you that last friday, the general council for our association sent a memo and basically said we should not be participating, and we're not participating. leon county will not participate in a legal systematic purge that is barred by section 8 of the voting rights act. it is applicable, but that's a whole other legal issue because since october the state of florida filed a lawsuit against
the government seeking to strike down the constitutionality of the voting rights act. this state is really doubling down on the partisan efforts, and this is all, really, since 2010 and what i call the tea party elections. >> why are they getting so rough down there? why are they so roughneck? they have been winning statewide, rick scott is the governor, why do they have to go in there and push this muscle around and squeeze out the democratic voters that are eligible, why are they play sog rough? are they right wingers or what's going on? >> this state is very, very ideologically driven. the florida house and senate has been controlled by the florida republican party since 1998. and we, as the supervisor of elections saw the entire landscape and relationship between our office and the secretary of state office dramatically changed.
those in power now don't even bother to allow the minority party to hold any hearings on their bills. and the partisan nature here is so awful, that the division of elections won't even share with the supervisor of elections how it came to this database. is it accurate? it's basically a top down kin of process we have been ordered to follow. and we that remember the problems in the state in 2000 are simply not going to go down that road again, and this played a role in the republican secretary of state wurt brownings recent resignation. he was not going to officiate over this kind of a partisan activity and he resigned rather than do this. >> we were through all of this, thank you for joining us from the league of women voters, i have great really for you. it seems to me we went through
this with saturday night live's version of katherine harris. the way they handled the recount, and the supreme court put their thumb on the scale. the league of women voters had a victory last week when a federal judge struck down part of a new law that would force voter registration groups to have a fine for signatures not submitted within 48 hours. that makes is harer for new voters to register. this may work otherwise there is little reason for such a requirement. on this show, i don't know if you watch it, we made a lot of fun of this ridiculous requirement. you're in a shopping mall on a friday afternoon, you have a bunch of signatures, that means sun the offices are closed, you can't turn them in and you're already fined. we thought 48 hours was absurd. is there a pattern of trying to
restrict or suppress voting by suspected democrats? >> i thought you had it just right in your introduction when you talk about shades of the year 2000. the only thing missing is the cat and the rabbit. you talked about the voter purges. that is one part of a vast package of voter suppression laws. we saw the legislation and the governor cut early voting days in half and that's in spite of the fact that people were waiting four hours and long neither last presidential election. we have seen elimination of the most popular early voting day of all before election day, particularly for minorities. we have seen in position of many more people are going to need to cast provisional ballots this year. and, of course, the restrictions against groups like ours who are only trying to bring new
eligible voter into the election process. so we are celebrating. ly say that rig i will say that right now, we had a big win. >> it's such an interesting thing, to target, you know, realize that african-americans tend to go to church on sunday and go register afterwards, and this has become a wonderful ritu ritual, and the republicans say great, we can zap this because these people register on sunday, let's make sure we can't do this any more. >> the laws that we have seen are going to impact all florida voters basically bottom line, it will make it harder for everybody to vote with a special emphasis on minorities and a special emphasis making it harder for our students and our elderly. we are continuing to fight these laws. we have another lawsuit in court
regarding some of the changes that the judge has not spoken on yet, but we were really pleased last week with that decision. the supervisor of elections and ion sancho is my hero, and they're fiting back and passing it by a huge majority. >> i can respond to this, here is governor rick scott defending his effort to comb the voter roll for what he says are noncitizens. let's listen to the governor here. >> we need fair elections. we need to make sure the other people have a right to vote. you're a candidate, you want to make sure people that vote in your election are people with a right to vote pip don't want to disenfranchise anybody in voting rights. we just want fair elections. this is not a par san issue. >> he says it's not a partisan
issue, does that pass the smell test? >> not to me it doesn't, chris. we have almost no evidence in this state of illegal voters on our database. we spend $23 million to build what i think may be the state of the art voter registration database as required by the help america vote act, and that requires front end matching and picture id matching at the other end. i would say that is well over 95% accurate. the governor has thrown out numbers like 180,000 noncitizens. that is completely false. that number, i think, is simply designed to be like a bloody shirt that he is waving in front of his tea party supporters, and that's what this has to do with, not well prepared elections. the election supervisors have to do.
>> this is so sad. you know we will all be watching florida, probably. it looks like this election will come down to the wire, and the president and the republican candidate, romney will be very close, and florida will be one of those states we watch, and here we see this preparation being made by scrubbing the rolls, making it very difficult for people to vote, cutting down the opportunities to register. punishing -- threatening to punish people doing registration, all narrowing the vote for the same upper crust or upper class white people. what are they trying to groom down there? do they want a certain kind of electorate. ? are they limiting it to that? >> if the data purges are any indication, one might certainly come to that conclusion. the numbers when, an analysis has been done of the numbers that -- of the list sent to the
supervisors, an extraordinary and way disproportionately high number of minority voters compared to the electorate in florida. as i said, the laws they passed will make it harder for every florida voter, but in particular, the laws they passed are disproportionately going to impact our minority voters, young voters, and elderly voters. >> it looks like the tea party is so powerful they're trying to decide who gets to vote. thank you very much. i have heard you're great and you are, i love your league of women voters organization. coming up, dirty angry money, we saw what the money did in wisconsin this week, do the sharks smell blood? apparently so. will the republicans spend their way to victory? and mitt romney says it's okay to blame president obama from the millions of bush job losses in mr. obama's first year, but for romney's record, well his first year just doesn't count.
and they may be allies, but bill clinton and president obama are battling for opposing candidates. and let me start with this dirty angry money. this is "hardball," a place for politics. ink? ♪ power surge, let it blow your mind. [ male announcer ] for fruits, veggies and natural green tea energy... new v8 v-fusion plus energy. could've had a v8.
a state to wash this year in virginia. romney needs to win it to have a shot of the white house. we have a new virginia poll and for that we check the "hardball" score board. a new poll has president obama holding a five point lead over mitt romney in virginia. the race is getting tighter and it was eight in march. now to michigan, the state thought to be leaning to obama, romney how has a one point lead over the president in a new poll, romney 46-45.
there it is, welcome back to "hardball." one thing we learned this week is money talks loudly. all of those super pac sharks are smelling blood in the water as they gear up for november elections up and down the bout. they will match what will be a spending on sought. we have the chief white house correspondent, and major garrett. thank you, you're the two best. don't get mad at me chuck because he is my partner and you're my outsider. >> you gave such an angry pace. >> michael barron, any congressional district, he will tell you the ethic break down. let me ask you about this.
i'm watching this tuesday, and it was a heartbreaker for people like ed schultz and labor guys, i think there was a lot of potential falling into place that didn't. 37% of the labor families voted for the governor. >> that's usually about the labor share. >> everybody thinks all labor people are democrats. the other thing is the people thought the recall should only be used when someone is a crook and misuses their authority. let me ask you about this. a lot of money was thrown in there by big people by big suspects, and heindricks with a lot of money, and they win. is the message to the people on the right that is works? >> it was a message in 2008,
right? on the other side. look at, you had a democrat -- the biggest money campaign in the history of presidential politics was barack obama. what did it mean? he carried states that democrats had not carried in a generation. i think -- >> are you surprised right now looking at romney this month? these numbers are -- >> 77 million to his 60. this is the new tv add, let's look at the new obama tv add, trying to get back on the jobs messaging. they feel they have to do this to make up for the loss in wisconsin. let's watch. >> i'm barack obama and i approve this message. >> we're fighting our way back from the worst economic crisis since the depression. we have created a lot of new jobs but we're not creating them as fast as we want. >> it would put teachers,
firefighters, police officers back to work right now, and it's paid for by asking the wealthiest americans to pay a little more. >> what's the point of this add? >> it's to answer the criticism they don't have a plan. i can tell you the hand ringing that has gone on, it's not about bain or bill clinton, it's about the charge of what is the president running on. a piece of it right now that puts a little bit of the ownous. >> they expect that to work? >> they expect to get -- >> they ought to have a big construction workers job program that people can imagine, see it out there like lincoln did, like with the interstate, the railroad, or like eisenhower. this idea to help payoff the
debts of states do not grab the imagination of the american people. >> for my magazine piece, i asked this, why not go big, bold, or something that trance forms this conversation. even if you lose you changed the debate. and they said look here is the answer i got back. we know more about the way american people view this economy than anyone else running for reelection or anyone else covering this campaign. okay, that's the answer i got from the white house, and they will stand where they are. there is a debate going on. the consensus is stay where we are, blame congress because most americans believe republicans run all of congress, the white house is confident about that -- >> what about that question chuck raised about four years ago or five years ago? they vote on the future of their families? >> i think it's a risk. >> what's their big picture for the future? >> that they don't have. i'm told they have time for that, i don't know -- >> they'll do it down in
charlotte. >> that's when he lays out the next four years. the assumption is in the summer months, the discouraging jobs data, the american people will focus in september, don't blow those out -- >> it's the old roll it out. >> i heard that before. >> it's a message as opposed to rally -- >> two things. they don't want a big grand jobs bill. they want something small they think will meet the current message needs, but that ad didn't do it. >> that's for people to decide who watch the ad. >> chris, there is two sets of swing voters out here. one is their base. that part their working on, but they still have this persuasion part. people think government has done too many big things. the idea that it's good politics for the government right now whb let me propose a big spending program like you're describing
at this point -- >> they also said look, if we start to heckter congress -- >> they saw that happening in august for the debit ceiling crisis. >> let me talk about money. there used to be you would think the incumbent, the president of the united states -- >> john kerry outraised and spent george w. bush in 2004. we just had this happen eight years ago, and by the way, he didn't outspend him enough. >> what about -- >> there's two pots of money, let's get the structural thing down on this pot for the rnc and the romney campaign. for the first time, for the last two months, they have been able to raise is this money jointly. remember, there are dlsh 134 million dollars of people donated to people not named mitt
romney. they're all eligible now to jump into this huge pot of $74,000 or more. >> where does that limit come from? >> that's combined what you can give to romney and the parties. it's a whole big part of money. >> but you can give unlimited money to the super pacs. >> right, but the dnc and the campaign anticipated this, but what's romney have cash on hand, romney has 9 million on hand, and the president has $115 million. >> and we would know if romney had more money, there is a reason he is only advertising -- >> when is advertising going to matter? when does it start to matter and affect votes? >> i think some of it is now. i think this is the sweet spot between now and july 4th. this is an important advertising period, and then i think there is a lull, and then i think it
will matter again in september. and then october it will lull. >> if used to be if you're rich, a self-financing candidate, they got close, right? they would just spend all of the money they had in hand and they would have a lot in hand. suppose the sheldon adleson's see it's close in the last week, don't they just dump -- >> there's nothing to buy in the last week, it's all bought. >> there's no way they can buy? >> no, all of the slots are bought. >> you will see most of it spent before september, because mt. money, legally, has to be spent -- >> am i right about the sharks smell blood for the win in wisconsin. >> yes. it's a ground game, energy in the streets, and they had it in wisconsin. >> i think democrats will find super donors that pop up.
>> but they will need energy in the streets. >> we could do this for hours. >> thank you chuck todd and major garrett. up next, jeb bush make it's official. he thinks the republican party moved too far right for him. this country was built by working people. the economy needs manufacturing. machines, tools, people making stuff. companies have to invest in making things. infrastructure, construction, production. we need it now more than ever. chevron's putting more than $8 billion dollars
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this is crazy, someone hacked into mitt romney's e-mail account. they did after correctly guessing the answer to his security question. it's email@example.com. the guy trying to prove he is in touch is using hotmail. >> you think old and dial up internet, right? the late night comedians were all over that hacker that got
into romney's hotmail account. let's go to some of the top ten subject lines. >> new tier involving the vp job. >> number eight, it's been over a month since you purchased a cad late. >> coming up, 20% at beach house car elevators.com. number three, it's newt, are you getting my messaging? number two, if i vote for you, can i ride on your dancing horse? >> wow, the secret service confirmed they are investigating that hacker situation there. what's the best way to kill momentum in a teach on the u.s. senate floor. yesterday, he learned the hard way. >> when i apply the standard that i mentioned, and the standards that senator obama laid out, or the standards in
expressed -- [ cell phone rings ] >> we know what his ring tone is, don't we. note to senator grassley, next time put your phone on silent. and jeb bush make it's clear the gop went too far to the right for him. here he is on cbs this morning. >> have you made the decision that you do not want to president? >> i have nod made that decision, but i think there is a window of opportunity and life for all sorts of reasons, and this was probably my time. although i don't know, given kind of what i believe and how i believe it, i'm not sure i would have been successful as a candidate either. these are different times than just six years ago when i last ran. >> wow, too right for him. that depate, when all the candidated raised their hand
saying they would refuse $10 in spending cutting for $1 in new revenue. at a house budget committee hearing he said he would have been the od man out. >> this will prove i'm not running for anything. if you could bring to me a majority of people to say that we're going to have $10 of spending cutting for $1 of revenue enhancement, put me in, coach. >> wow. he is a smart guy that would not have fit in with the clown show. up next, hypocrisy alert, machinery blames president obama for the jobs lost in his first year as president. then romney says don't count the job losses for his fare year as governor in massachusetts. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about fees.
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here is what's happening, president obama spoke earlier at university of las vegas and talked about a range of issues including the job market and asked congress to act quickly. a family of two adults and four children were killed earlier when a small plane crashed in central florida. climate watchers say this spring was the warmest ever on record. the first five months were the hottest since record keeping began in 1895. now back to "hardball." >> back to "hardball." mitt romney's campaign advisors
are defending the candidate on his attacks as governor. the state was 47 in the terms of job creation. when you're running for office as the jobs guy, that's not a great record. but his advisors have a defense. they say it's unfair to count all of it since he inherited a bad picture. >> when, this is what they're doing, chris, you take the first year, which is a low base year when the governor came in and took office because it was 50th out of all of states, moved it to 30th by the fourth year, created 40,000 jobs, and they're averaging over the four years. they're bringing down the gains of his fourth year in office that shows the real impacts of his policiepolicies. he inhearted a $3 billion projected deficit.
>> did you catch that, romney inhearted a bad situation. when it comes to the president romney doesn't cut obama any slack at is rom nigh's spokeswoman. >> he has not created a net single new job. >> and mitt romney earlier this year, let's watch him. >> this is a president that lost more jobs in his tenure than any president since hoover. >> the only way to look at the president's record and consider him a net job loser is to count the first months of his term when they were hemorrhaging jobs. michael steele is the former republican national committee care and an msnbc analyst and steve mcman. let me start with this, michael you could be adversaryian here. it could be that what's good for the goose is good for the
gander. if romney's people say you can't say he was 47th in job creation out of 50 because his first three was terrible, if you do the same math on obama he did produce about 4 million new jobs. so it is at legitimate criticism and a legitimate defense, but let's get consistent here on the romney side. >> i think it is a legitimate criticism, and you will not discount any term of a governor's term or a president's term. i think this is the deference and what ed was pushing to. that is what policies and steps did the president take coming office with a hostile legislature, controlled by democrats. he was able to turn it around from 50th to 47th.
he inherited it it was at 50th. i'm saying if you're taking that number, the last couple years the number of jobs were much greater. the second and full-time point and then i will turn it to you. the second point is when you look at what obama has done coming in his first two years with a super majority and the house and the senate. >> the worst economic crash since the great depression. >> he had first of all -- >> the policies put in place has created an anemic economy at best, and 23 million americans are still unemployed. >> you can be dramatic -- >> i'm not being dramatic. >> look if you buy a house and the lawn is not cut is that your fault? >> what does it have to do? >> it's a met for. it's a simple way of saying don't blame a guy for what he
inherited. >> if you buy a lawn more with dull blades you're not cutting the grass are you. >> here are a couple fact that's are more difficult to argue about. when mitt romney became governor the unemployment rate in massachusetts was lower than the national average, and when he left office, the unemployment rate was higher than the national average. he had four years to do what was happening in the country and he could not do it. he could not do it, 40,000 manufacturing jobs disappeared. >> family pakistans went up $5500. >> let's go to the educational part of the show, let's look at the president's record on jobs. see that in the beginning there, under ed east logic, look at what his jobs record looks like.
as the new york times did overall, if you discount his first month, the country netted 200,000, and obama has done very good except for the first year. you say that's when his law mother blades were not sharp enough, but he got one hell of a mess. >> that's right, but what do you do with it once you're in charge. it's a nice chart, but let's talk about those jobs, they were largely government related jobs. not private sector jobs. >> we have that chart too that shows the jobs created were private sector jobs. here it is, see the blue, that's private sector. >> how do you explain 23 million people still looking for work? >> it's the economy that was inherited. >> so that discounts for the 23
million? >> is this higho high school argument. >> let's cherry pick so machinery wants to cherry pick you have dates. in the last 27 months there has been job creation every month. when mitt romney -- >> we have good numbers coming. >> 169,000. >> one and a halftimes what -- one and a halftimes what mitt romney did in four years was last month. >> you're talking about a country verses a statement. manufacturing jobs disappeared at twice the national average. >> i love the way you come on this show, michael, and you defend your congress, and when they get nothing done because they so no to everything, like that little can of spam he has, and they say no to that, not this little jobs bill to help states and counties make more
firemen and teachers, you say no to that every day and then you say how come no new jobs? your party in the congress gets it's rocks off week after week after week saying no. >> that's an image i don't want to deal with right now. >> i don't know what it mean sos you go on here. >> the reality of it is you want to just get the spam out there, but you're not worried about how much the spam cost. you're not worried about how folks will. >> you can't complain about no jobs if a guy says i have a jobs bill and you say no to it. >> it creates jobs, michael. independent economists -- >> what were you doing the first year? health care? >> you know how you got out of great depression? world war ii, stimulus. >> what did health care have to do with jobs in the first year.
>> because the belief the president had was until we got health care under control, we would hemorrhage the federal budget. >> so that means i have no health care? >> steve mcman and michael steele, bill clinton's candidate beat barack obama's candidate in the member verses member fight. i know it's the side bar, but bill clinton keeps picking candidates and obama gets the other one, and it seems bill clinton wins the fight. it's interesting to watch and it may tell us something about 2012 and certainly something about 2016. on a desolate highway in your jeep grand cherokee. and when you do, you'll be grateful for the adaptive cruise control that automatically adjusts your speed when approaching slower traffic. and for the blind spot monitoring that helps remind you that the highway might not be as desolate... ...as you thought.
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we're back. he may be an a list surrogate for the president, but picket and president obama are refighting the 2008 campaign in many ways this year. s, clinton's guy won. most recently with bill pascrell on tuesday. he joins us right now. i'm watching this, congressman, and congratulations, sir. i used to root for jack merth in these fights, they're the toughest fights you have. it's so fascinating to watch carr lie in a cain and, let's see critz in pennsylvania, where ever bill clinton came, his guy or woman won. and here he is again in new jersey. is his power across the country or in the northeast? >> he is an energizing gorilla.
he keeps moving and was excellent last friday. he was on his game and we both want the president to be reelected. re-elected. we are confident that that's going to happen he's certainly helped me in my campaign. we were the underdog. we were 14 points down two or three months ago and we finished strong, we had the momentum. and for a district that was 60 the other way and 40 my way, i think we did a pretty good job. >> tough a sense that bill clinton is hoping that senator clinton, now secretary of state clinton, is going to run for president in 2016? do you have a sense he wants that to happen? >> we never discussed it. we talk frequently. that's never come up. but we couldn't have a better candidate in 2016 if she wants to run. >> is he out there to -- okay, let's talk politics, because you're a politician, i'm just an observer. but there's a phrase called clearing the field. i have a sense, and this is not negative, i tell you. i admire the president, the
former president, tremendously. but he's clearing the field for hillary clinton, the next time. he doesn't want to see any opponents like joe biden or martin o'malley or rahm emanuel. he doesn't want anyone come ought there testing the water to run against her. he wants to be able to say to her spouse, you run, he may have to talk her into it, because there's not going to be any democrat getting in your way. >> fact of the matter is, he hasn't come out for too many candidates in this primary, regardless of how folks have tried to make this the president versus the former president. only three candidates, and in fact, my brother, mark krits, he didn't go to pennsylvania, he endorsed him. he came to our district. so i don't think so, in answering your question, i don't believe that's his motivation. >> well, he got in the attorney general fight against pat murray. i saw that, so he's doing this. he's picking his fights. >> very effective. >> i'll tell you, it's very effective. it's awesome. >> i think he energizes the
troops. this is what he does. the outpouring of support and adulation for former president clinton was just great last friday. it helped me a lot. he endorsed me a month ago, and then came in, has done robo calls for me. i'm very grateful to the president. but this is -- you know, once a primary's over, chris, for the most part, we come together, and then the major objective is -- >> i'm with you. let's have some fun. by the way, congratulations again, congressman. let's have some fun. you came on "hardball" two years ago and talked about reaching a bipartisan compromise on health care, which was perfectly reasonable at the time. i think it made a lot of sense. let's watch it, because your opponent in this primary went after you on this. >> that's correct. >> is there going to be some kind of reform this year that's agreeable to both sides? will they do this piecemeal and do something on portability, on pre-existing conditions, to start with. that first chunk, is it going to happen? >> i really believe that it can happen, and i believe that the president should try again to
reach out to the other side. i know what he tried to do in the beginning. mr. boehner, the leader of republicans in the house, he chose the path of saying, nah, our party's not going to support any of this, and it puts the pressure on anybody on the other side, who wants to think of some the iss -- the republicans had great ideas. i liked some of their ideas. >> now let's watch how your opponent, your defeated opponent, tried to use it against you. here's steve rothman using that interview we just saw in one of his attack ads. >> i'm steve rothman and i approve this message. >> who wants more tax cuts for the rich? mitt romney, chris christie, newt gingrich, and bill pascrell. >> republicans had great ideas. i liked some of their ideas. >> especially if you're wealthy. >> boy, what a cheap shot. what a distortion. they had you hanging around with the rich people and all you were saying is, let's try to find a compromise on health care to get something done.
>> certainly, that's not my record, chris. my record is what other people decide it to be, of course. but third parties have said this was not only disingenuous, it was deceitful, because we were talking about health care. if we couldn't get the whole bill passed, let's put it -- let them vote against doing away with preconditions. let them vote against people getting a break on the prescription drugs. i wanted to put them to the test, the same way, chris w, if you remember, i asked in 2010 a vote on the ryan budget. >> you won! and "hardball" won. thank you, bill pascrell of new jersey. when we return, let me finish with a bad precedent set this week out in wisconsin, with all that dirty, angry money out there, to make a very big difference, unfortunately. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.
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let me finish tonight with this dirty, angry money, that's begun polluting american politics. does it matter to you or bother you that a farm full of the very rich can pour money into an election and get what they want? does out the tick you off that your little vote is like a sand flee compared to the millions these customers can spring when
and where they decide? it's what happened in wisconsin this week and it's becoming a gleaming model for what these people are now planning for november, seven to one. that's how much scott walker, the republican governor, outspent his democratic critics, seven to one. $30 million to less than $4 million. and look at the donors, bob perry of texas, the home builder. he spent $490,000. sheldon adelson, the casino magnate, diane hendricks, another wealthy donor, both more than $500,000 a piece. regular people trying to do their bit, right? regular people that hate the president. thanks to the right-leaning supreme court, by the way, and its citizens united ruling, they can spend all they want. and now they know they can get results. this election in wisconsin this week, whatever you think of it, could have a huge affect on november. it's going to teach all that dirty, angry money, all those people who love influencing america and american politics, all the while keeping themselves shy of the spotlight, that they can get away with it. wisconsin was a bad precedent, a bad